Interview with University of Tartu professor Riho Altnurme
(Riho Altnurme was interviewed by Rudīte Losāne, Ieva Puriņa, Dace Balode, and Agnese Kapče)
Riho Altnurme is a professor of Church history at the Faculty of Theology of the University of Tartu. Since 2006 he has also been the dean of this faculty. His research interests relate to religion as a part of society and culture. He has carried out much research on the history of the Estonian Evangelical Lutheran church, especially on the period after the Second World War, and is also a participant in several international research projects.
Riho Altnurme has also been particularly involved in cooperation with the Faculty of Theology of the University of Latvia, where he has worked as a visiting professor and as director of the doctoral study programme in Theology and Religious Studies. Born in 1969, his wife Lea is a leading researcher in the anthropology of religion. They are raising two daughters.
We meet the dean of the Faculty of Theology of the University of Tartu at lunchtime, between two parts of a conference devoted to the future of the University of Tartu.
We want to hear from doctor of theology and professor Riho Altnurme what he can tell us about the question of women’s ordination. We sit down in a comfortable café and ask about the situation in the Estonian Lutheran church. The professor is not directly connected with this question, but that suits us – we want to hear someone who is an educated professional but is not directly connected with the problem of women’s ordination. We are on first-name terms, because we have happened to meet within the framework of cooperation between the theology faculties.
What is the current situation in Estonia regarding the question of women’s ordination?
Already in the 1920s and 1930s the Evangelical Lutheran church discussed women’s ordination, how women could work in the church. What would their task be? It was the case that more and more women began to study; at the theology faculties they studied to become teachers, and some of them were already preparing at that time to become at least preachers. It was not a very significant question, but back then it was at least discussed theoretically. Sometimes quite strange arguments were made against women pastors, for example, that women supposedly do not have a voice suited to preaching. Such counterarguments are found everywhere.
In practice, however, women could not become pastors before the Second World War. After the war, many congregations lacked pastors, and then the Soviet authorities closed congregations that had no pastor. And so sometimes women were chosen as preachers. The consistory proposed it, and, if there was no pastor, then women could become congregation leaders.
There were also cases where a male pastor had been arrested by the Soviet authorities or the pastor had gone into exile as a refugee. Then sometimes the pastors’ wives took on the care of the congregations. So quite soon after the war the discussion about women’s ordination already began; the fundamental decision about whether women can serve in congregations was made right after the war – women can serve in a congregation. There is no fundamental difference between a man and a woman. Women continued to study theology, according to the theology studies of that time almost illegally. And so it was possible for women to be prepared to become pastors.
When did the first women’s ordinations take place?
In the 1960s there was a serious discussion; at various church meetings women’s ordination was discussed both at the level of the whole church and at the local level. I think that for the most part it was a decision of the church leadership – we will follow this kind of theology, and in 1967 the first women were ordained. At that time there were generally not too many pastors, fewer than 100.
How many women pastors are there at present?
Since that time there have been no significant changes on this question. Even when the Soviet era ended, the attitude towards this question did not change. I have never noticed there being serious discussions about whether this question should be reviewed anew. Not like in Latvia, where changes took place. Jaan Kiivit Jr., who became archbishop and whose father was the first to ordain women pastors, was very supportive on the question of women’s ordination.
Is there currently any tension in the church on this question?
After the Soviet era, various theological tendencies appeared ever more clearly in the church – liberal and conservative. In the Soviet era it was not so clear who belonged to which group, because the main thing for the church at that time was to survive in a hostile environment, and then you do not emphasize your differing opinion so much. Now the separate groups stand out more clearly; various groups have developed media portals.
What is conservative and liberal in the Estonian church?
Women’s ordination has definitely not been the most important question that would divide people into different camps. There are conservatives in the church who are in favour of women’s ordination. Last year there was a big discussion about homosexuality. Then many said – Estonians are somewhere in the middle, between liberal and conservative.
Actually, such a division is not very clear, because it is more the case that some are of one mind on one question, others on another, which is not unambiguously a conservative or liberal viewpoint. The differences are more in the liturgical respect. There is a movement that follows the liturgy in a more Catholic way, and then there can also be the so-called black Lutherans, who hold to a strictly Lutheran tradition and wear a black robe. There are also humane Christians, of whom the thoroughly conservative ones say: they are no longer Christians at all.
The most important thing – all of this is within the church; no one has left the church, but rather everyone works together. Quite a large proportion of today’s pastors came to the church in the 1990s. This is the generation that is now around 40; they got their education either at the Tartu Faculty of Theology or at the Tallinn Theological Institute, but today they have become “liberals” or “conservatives” – yet from both educational institutions there have come both liberals and conservatives.
It seems that the discussions about various theological questions are not heated?
There have been discussions, for example, these humanistic Christians have been the object of discussion, the question of homosexuality has also been very sharply debated, but women’s ordination has not been an important question in this discussion. There has not been anyone who would say: we should stop ordaining women. Many conservatives also do not want a “revolution” on this question. As far as I know, quite many women pastors support a conservative stance on various questions. So in this respect there is also no division into camps.
It has sometimes been argued that women’s ordination destroys the authority of the Bible.
Yes, in the Estonian church the authority of the Bible has already been completely destroyed and nothing is left of it. (Laughs)
Well, it is usually said that if you take one fragment and do not translate it literally, then you undermine the whole authority of the Bible as a whole.
There are very many fragments of the Bible that are not translated literally, that have nothing to do with women’s ordination.
What are the arguments that are invoked in Estonia against women’s ordination?
If someone argues against it, then they are the usual arguments cited – Jesus did not have women disciples, women’s ordination destroys the ecumenism with the Catholic and Orthodox church, and so on; quotations from the Bible are also invoked.
How are pastors chosen in a congregation?
First there is a competition, and the congregation chooses its pastor. The candidates, however, are first selected in the consistory, and then it proposes them to the congregation. The congregation chooses among the best.
And are women elected?
Yes, women are elected. In fact, quite willingly. I have not heard of problems in this respect.
Why do you think the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Latvia chose to go the path without women’s ordination?
Perhaps the context of the church plays a large role there – the fact that in Latvia the context of the Evangelical Lutheran church is the Catholic and Orthodox church.
Moreover, the church also follows the standards of society. The church will be conservative if society too is conservative.
After the conversation we say goodbye and drive on, to meet still more women who serve in congregations, who for their part will confirm that they are accepted in their work. It is easy. Not only because the Estonian Lutheran church ordains women and we see the fulfilment of our dreams geographically so close. Nor because various opinions in the church are perceived as something normal.
It is easy because a man or a woman in the office of congregation pastor need not be the central problem. It need not be the mark that distinguishes a “real” and a “not-real” believer.
Discussion republished from the portal www.ir.lv (article published 10/10/2014) with the permission of the discussion’s authors
LLSTA