Pastor and theologian Karin Johannesson was elected Bishop of the Diocese of Uppsala on November 6, 2018, receiving 357 votes from those present. The other candidate fell slightly behind, obtaining 231 votes. 700 people took part in the election: half were pastors and deacons in the diocese’s congregations, and half represented the congregation members themselves from the congregations of the Diocese of Uppsala. Karin Johannesson will be consecrated to the office of bishop on March 3, 2019, taking the place of the current bishop, Ragnar Persenius, who is retiring.
Karin Johannesson is interviewed by the editor of the LLSTA website, Aļesja Lavrinoviča
I am meeting pastor Karin Johannesson in the premises of the Uppsala Faculty of Theology. I know the way, even though I have not walked this path for almost 10 years. Walking to the faculty, I recall my time as a student in Uppsala, when, studying at a private seminary (Livets Ord), I was registered at both libraries of Uppsala University: the Royal Uppsala Library “Carolina Rediviva” and the library of the Faculty of Theology. I am anxious, because Karin Johannesson is a philosopher of religion, and philosophy is not my strong suit, since, growing up in the Pentecostal movement, I was taught that philosophy is human wisdom that must be rejected. In my youth I despised philosophy, not understanding that theology and philosophy are the oldest and deepest sciences, which have far more in common than apart: philosophy poses questions about truth, the meaning of life, God; theology enters into dialogue and formulates possible answers. In times when theology is occupied, when it is forbidden to ask questions and forbidden to reason, philosophy shakes it up, sometimes in a sharp, biting way, reminding it that theology has lost its original task – to be in dialogue. I recall that I tried in the library of the Faculty of Theology to find answers to questions important to me, because, studying at the seminary, I had neither enough space for thought nor enough books. At that time I could not have imagined that theology would become my specialization. The conversation with Karin Johannesson takes place in her office, which is flanked on both sides by several hundred books.
What is it like – to grow up in a society where everyone is equal – women and men?
[Laughs.] I think it is a great opportunity, because you receive support from an early age. You are told: “You can do this.” It is quite natural.
So you have never heard: “As a woman you can’t do this or that!”?
Sometimes, of course, I have heard that. When I was a child, some people said: “You can’t play the drums, because that activity is for boys.” And about playing football, too, I was told that I couldn’t. That there should be a girls’ team. My parents have two daughters, and my parents were very encouraging. When there was no girls’ football team, my mother founded such a team and found someone who could coach us. So, even if I have heard that I can’t do something, most of the time there was a solution: “You can do it anyway. Even if people react against it, you can do it.”
In your CV you write that you began to study theology in 1989 with the aim of being ordained in the Church of Sweden as soon as possible. Yet you were ordained considerably later, in 2010. Tell us first why you chose to study theology and whether this statement in your CV is meant as irony?
[Laughs.] Yes, it is irony! I grew up in a family that attended church. When I was 14 or 15, I understood that God wanted me to become a pastor in the Church of Sweden. That was not my plan. I thought: what is this? I had other plans.
What plans?
I wanted to be a writer, an author of books, a lecturer.
But that is what you do, isn’t it?
Yes, it is. But then, when I understood that God wanted me to become a pastor, I tried to follow His guidance, and when I turned 18, I began to study theology here, in Uppsala. I found my studies wonderful, very interesting.
When I was close to the end of my studies, I could choose to finish and move toward ordination, but I decided to take up research. Then I discussed things with God again. I said to God: “All right, theology is fascinating, but I don’t know whether I want to be a pastor in the Church of Sweden, at least not now. Maybe I can get more time and take up research?” Then I obtained a doctorate. Alongside my studies I had, all the while, been working in the Church of Sweden: on practical matters, projects, and so on. I was already working in the Church of Sweden.
Then I recalled – “once I wanted to be ordained, but now I am a philosopher of religion, I do things that are important to the church anyway. I am already serving the church in some way…”
Then, around 2008, I again felt that God wanted me to be ordained. So something had to be done. I realized that I had to try to finish my studies and become ordained. I prayed intensely for God’s guidance and finished my studies. I finished my studies, and I still had to study for six months in order to be ordained. In 2010 I was ordained. Then I served in Värmland, in the Karlstad region. It was interesting, lovely, and I felt that yes, this is important. It is wonderful. I like meeting people and preaching. That is the story. And it is a bit of irony, yes. Because when I was 23 or 25, I wanted to finish my studies as soon as possible, to be in a congregation and work in a congregation.
You began with theology. Was there also philosophy, or did you turn to philosophy afterwards?
Philosophy of religion is a discipline in the Faculty of Theology of Uppsala University. It is close to systematic theology. I studied philosophy of religion within the framework of theological studies. I obtained a doctorate in philosophy of religion.
Why did you choose philosophy?
I liked the lecturer (very much), I also like to analyze things, I like to discuss questions of faith with people who think differently. And that is what I do as a philosopher of religion. It inspired me; we met with scientists. I like to think about how we speak of God in dialogue with the natural sciences. To meet with Muslims. To ask whether they believe in the same God as we do. I love philosophy! I wrote my dissertation on the philosophy of language. On how we actually speak of God and understand something about God.
You also wrote proposals for the handbook of the Church of Sweden. Was that something from your dissertation?
Yes, from the dissertation. I think that, if we are talking about thought processes and discussing liturgy, it is important to understand how we use language when we lead a service or pray.
What about inclusive language in the liturgy? How does it work? In 2017 the new handbook of the Church of Sweden came out, in which the words “He” and “Lord” have been replaced with “God”. How is it really?
I think the words “He” and “Lord” are still retained in the liturgy. I have not yet got hold of the new book. But it is not as common as it used to be. Sometimes there is “Lord”, or “God” in its place. Now, though, “Lord” is used less often.
In the liturgy too, in church?
Yes, in the liturgy too. You can use “God”.
Returning to your dissertation, what were your conclusions and proposals to society?
My proposal was that philosophers of religion should think more about how people use religious language, or language in the liturgy [in the service]. Sometimes we philosophers of religion are rather abstract. But one has to look at how people actually speak. When I was writing the conclusions and trying to apply them, I realized that we are the ones who create and use language to designate God. And I think that we can sometimes use “He” and sometimes we could say “She”. That would remind us that things are more complicated, namely, that God is not masculine in a simple sense. We have a tendency to forget this. By using forms of address in a different way, we could thus remind ourselves of this.
When I was writing the article, I wrote about how, in the Christian tradition, there are many people who speak of the Holy Spirit and of Wisdom as “She” in the feminine. Why couldn’t we do that too? It would give us greater freedom today and remind us that religious language is more complex than we often think. Such were my recommendations on inclusive language.
Is there a “She” anywhere in the liturgy?
Not yet. I would actually prefer it. Sometimes one could say “Lord”, sometimes one could say “Holy Spirit, it is She who invites you in”. Then there would be diversity.
Is that in the article Inklusivitet (inclusion – in Swedish) or Kön och bön (gender and prayer – in Swedish)?
That is in the article on inclusion. Kön och bön came about because I am interested in the Carmelite tradition in the Catholic Church. There are many holy women in it. The best known are Teresa of Ávila and Thérèse of the Child Jesus. Sometimes people who are inspired by the Carmelite tradition say: “Women are much better at prayer, women are more contemplative.” Then I argue – let us suppose that we are (I don’t know whether we really are or not). But how could we explain this in a way that does not contain within itself the assumption that women should not be allowed to do certain specific things in the church or in society, because we are different and are ‘more contemplative’. Do you see the point? And then I offer three possible answers as to why women are such a good example of prayer and pray better: the first – it has to do with woman’s biological constitution.
The second – that as women we are always oppressed, we are weak, and we have to sit at home. But if we explain it this way, then it can lead to consequences. Because then women will continue to be oppressed. I argue about how we ought to understand and explain it.
My conclusion in the article was the third option – because we have a specific life experience. And this life experience can be good if you want to pray. If men have a similar experience, then they too can be just as good at prayer (as contemplatives) as we are.
When I was at the Catholic University in Leuven, I had to defend my master’s thesis, I was nervous. I recall that an elderly Catholic woman from India had come to my defense. She said she would pray for me. She came up and began the prayer with the words “Our Father and Mother..” The way she addressed God surprised me. Later I asked her where such a form of address came from for her. She said that among Catholics in India, God is spoken of in both the masculine and the feminine.
Elizabeth Johnson, a Catholic theologian, once wrote a book entitled “She Who Is” (She who is). She wrote about how we can also speak of God in the feminine. In the Church of Sweden there has long been a prayer that one can choose (it is not obligatory) to pray, and it goes: “God, You are to us like a father and a mother.” Editor’s note: in the 1986 church book the Communion (C) prayer went as follows:Blessed are You, Creator of all that lives.Blessed are You, Lord over space and time.Blessed are You, the beginning and the end of all things,You who are to us like a father and a mother.[1]In the church book published in 2016, the last line goes as follows: “You who are to us father and mother”. The Lord’s Prayer in the liturgy? “Father” has remained?
Yes, it has [laughs]. Rumors went around that Sweden had abandoned absolutely everything. That is not the truth.
You have written a great deal about spirituality. And specifically, about Lutheran spirituality. Why?
Sometimes it is said that Sweden is a post-secular country. We think that we are very secularized, but a growing interest in spirituality is observable, and people want to come into contact with God in some way. They go on pilgrimages or walk through the forests and reflect, experiencing it as a spiritual experience. This does not always happen in a Christian context. There is yoga, various meditation techniques, and so on. I have thought about what the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Sweden could do: are there any spiritual practices that we could recommend and invite people to take part in? What about spirituality in the Church of Sweden? This is one consideration. The other, in my opinion, is that it is interesting to reflect on the Catholic saints and to understand what we could learn from them in a Lutheran context. I think Catholics might think similarly, namely, what they can learn from Lutheran spiritual leaders. It would be a kind of exchange. In Sweden we have an ecumenical movement, e.g., Lutherans read Catholic spirituality books and vice versa. People are interested in the spiritual practices of other denominations within the Christian family.
You have an academic article entitled “Features of Lutheran Spirituality”[2]. Have you found any good things for the Swedish spiritual context?
I also wrote a book, which came out last year, in which I compared one of the Carmelite saints, Thérèse of Lisieux, or Thérèse of the Child Jesus, with Martin Luther in their understanding of grace. Grace alone is a Lutheran concept. We must keep it in mind when speaking of spirituality. We cannot climb the mountain of holiness other than by grace alone.
So in Lutheran spirituality the main thing is grace?
Grace and faith. One must remember that you will not earn anything, you will not make yourself better by your own strength, because everything is a gift from God. And then I like to read the Catholic saints, because perhaps we can learn something from them. They do not contradict us; they say things differently, and that is interesting.
You have written a book “Helgelsens filosofi” (“The Philosophy of Sanctification”), and it is about spiritual formation in the Lutheran tradition.
Yes, there is also an article that is a summary of the main ideas of this book Lutheran Spiritual Theology in a Post-Christian Society and is available in English.[3]
Would you like to reflect on the situation in Latvia, where it is not the spiritual but the gender aspect that has gained the upper hand. How is this to be analyzed?
It is quite complicated. In a way I would like to say that, if a person is hurt, it affects the spiritual life. And we should not hurt one another in that way. If the church is very polarized and you cannot understand why you are told: you are a woman, you must be out, – then the woman will be hurt. You have done something wrong. People must take responsibility for their actions. If the church ordains women, the church cannot cast them out.
About young people. Before your election to the office of bishop you emphasized that you would like to do something for the psychological health of young people. Explain your observations. What is wrong with young people?
It is important to me that people understand themselves, their path in life, that they know how to relate to others with respect. There has to be a language in which to discuss questions about life and values. The problem is that we are so secularized that we lack such a language. It is no longer possible to say: “Yes, I know, I am not good enough, yet God loves me.” Because a person is not used to speaking of God. The only thing that remains is: “Yes, I know that I am not good enough.” And then people feel bad. In my opinion, there has been a disappearance of the kind of language that once helped us to be in contact with other people, with history, with ourselves, and with God. That is the problem. I have observed that many young people say that they do not feel right. They see no point in living. They ask: “Is there a place in life for me too? What am I to do with my life? I feel bored.” I would like to reach these young people and tell them that there is a point. God exists. God loves you, and He has a plan for each person, and that you can in fact talk with God and get help.
Why, do you think, has this language disappeared?
I think it is because people do other things rather than come to the congregation. The education system, too, is not the same as it used to be. In the past, at school one had to learn hymns, from which a corresponding language formed, and then one could say to oneself: “Yes, I at least know how to sing this hymn.. Now and then I have been to church, I liked that pastor.. Maybe I can talk with the pastor..” and so on. Now contact is different. Now, when people feel bad, the inner dialogue sounds roughly like this: “I feel bad. I don’t know what to do with my life.. Maybe I should get in touch with someone at church?” People hesitate too much.
Your concern is evangelization?
Actually, yes.
I would say, to offer people faith in a way that they understand it.
Is it possible to bring people back to the church?
That we shall see.
As a bishop you are planning that, yes?
I am planning to inspire young people and to find ways of doing it.
Could you imagine yourself in a society where there would be many restrictions on women? What would your life be like, what choices would you make in your career?
I would find it hard to imagine.
So it follows that no one in your life has ever pointed you to the Bible verses about women, that women must not speak in church?
I have heard that, yes. But I must say that nowadays people are quite friendly in the Church of Sweden. They would say: “That is my opinion.” I say: “Yes, I know your opinion.” When I was a child, I grew up in a congregation in which my grandfather was also a pastor in the Church of Sweden, and who advocated strongly for the ordination of women when the decision had to be made. He was convinced that it was the right path. But he had friends who said: “No, that is not the right path.” But they met, they talked it over. I have met such people as a student, as a pastor, before I was elected bishop, who say that they think it is not right, but who wish me well. It has never been hostile.
I think that if you interviewed one of the first women who was ordained in Sweden, she would have a different experience. But today no one will beat me, no one will “unfriend” me. They will politely say that they consider it not to be right.
When did your grandfather advocate for the ordination of women?
The decision to ordain women in Sweden was made in 1958, and the first woman was ordained in 1960. And my grandfather actually argued for it as early as the 1930s and 1940s. Afterwards he had four daughters, but he had advocated for the ordination of women even before that.
Tell us more about that, because, reading on Wikipedia about the ordination of women in the Church of Sweden, it is written that in 1957 the Church of Sweden voted against the ordination of women, but the Swedish Riksdag (parliament) put pressure on the church to ordain women. If I know nothing about the situation in the Church of Sweden at that time, the impression arises that it was a political decision to create a liberal and equal society. But you say that these debates were already taking place beforehand, with your grandfather’s participation?
Some people would say that this was a political decision and that it was wrong. There are those who say that this was a right decision. They would emphasize that this was a theological decision. I think that this was both a theological and a political decision. If the church had waited two more years, perhaps there would have been another vote. Then one could say: “Yes, we have done our theological homework and have now made a decision.” No one knows. There had been both discussions and theological analysis. It was not without foundation. Nowadays there are very few people who consider that this was a wrong decision. That is because this decision had many supporters within the church itself.
Do you know any of the arguments that your grandfather used?
It was important to him to preach that both men and women are equal, created in the likeness of God, that they can serve and preach. In 1960 three women were in fact ordained. Immediately after the ordination my grandfather invited one of them to come and visit the congregation and preach. I have seen pictures from a newspaper, where they went to church together. I think my grandfather would say that it is important for women to preach, because women have a different life experience than men.
What would you wish for the women in Latvia who cannot become pastors in their church, and it is not known for how long?
I hope that you could find some way to serve in the congregation. Not as ordained pastors, but to teach, to preach, to talk with people, to discuss questions of life, spirituality, faith, what it is like to be a Christian. And I also hope that a theological discussion about the ordination of women would be renewed and properly held, so that it would be possible to discuss the arguments and analyze them. I would like to hope. For me, as a philosopher of religion, it is important to analyze arguments. If there is an argument, there is also a counterargument. So that in the end there is clarity about why something has been decided. So that it would not be emotional or hidden, but open. I do not know whether that is possible. Perhaps not.
Photo: LLSTA
[1] Välsignad är du, allt levandes Skapare. Välsignad är du, Herre över rymd och tid. Välsignad är du, alltings ursprung och mål, du som är som en fader och en moder för oss.
[2] Karin Johannesson, “Vad kännetecknar luthersk spiritualitet?” Fönster mot forskningen: Artiklar från Svenska kyrkans forskardagar 2007, Verbum, Stockholm , 2008
[3] Karin Johannesson, “Lutheran Spiritual Theology in a Post-Christian Society” in Justification in a Post-Christian Society / [ed] Carl-Henric Grenholm, Göran Gunner, Pickwick Publications, 2014, p. 121—136.